spoiler alert: long-read full of imho's and personal observations, proceed with a cup of coffee/tea While the discussion about friendships in the skating world is relevant, I feel like jumping in because oh boy, the social part of speed skating is no less fascinating to me personally than its technical/athletic part and I tend to feel emotionally attached to skaters who resonate with my personal feelings/who I sympathize with on a personal level. This is just all just a part of being a human but I digress. Now straight to the point. I'm pretty sure every member of this forum who is actively involved in the sport as an athlete and is a member of any kind of skating group/club/team (underline the most relevant term applicable to yourself) is familiar with the dynamics within the group. Let's not delve too deep into the national and commercial teams. Tallinn speed skating club. Feels like a family. Great dynamics. Everyone is very friendly and supportive of each other. Yet it is evident for the attentive observer that some 'siblings' within this family tend to hang out with very certain team members outside of the training sessions. It is true that being a part of the team has been the greatest social experience in my life and I appreciate my teamies. Yet we don't see each other much outside of training. At the same time, it was this very team that brought me close with two very precious people. We became friends, in a true sense of the word. I'm pretty sure someone out there has had an experience similar to mine and a story just like this one. So it is understandable that some pro skaters may and may not find themselves tied by the bonds of friendship as the members come and go. Some of these bonds indeed do form and survive rivalry and hardships of life as a pro. Of course, it is more likely that these bonds are more likely to form with someone from your own team -- you spend more time together, you speak the same language, you attend the same training sessions, your coach screaming at you is the great common point of discussion. You see each other regularly and share the same, or similar, experiences. And this point has been raised here, the great example is the skaters of the ending era, like Olde Heuvel and Kramer, Wüst and van Deutekom. And still, some of the most interesting and remarkable friendships that I witnessed in speed skating are, in my opinion (or perception) those that formed between the skaters from different countries. I remember being absolutely taken aback and somewhat charmed by the (hopefully?) special bond between Sven Kramer and Håvard Bøkko. Oh the countless articles and blogposts I read in my glory days of early skating obsession trying to understand the friendship between Sven and the "guy skating in his shadow". Apparently, they were close, both spoke of each other with a degree of personal admiration and - of course - shameless punning. I don't know if they still keep in touch after Håvard's retirement. There is obviosly no objective way of knowing that and personally, I'll cherish my memories of witnessing their friendship bloom and leave the rest for them to deal with personally. Another example is the friendship between (oh how unexpected, Inimene) Patrick Roest and Nils vd Poel. It has been obvious from the start. No shit, both have talked about each other and their special relationship more than once. Nils has once mentioned it sixteen times during just one interview, actually Besides having a close relationship with the Norwegians, Nils constantly refers to Patrick alone as his actual friend in the skating world and it seems mutual. Partick admits Nils has a place in his head and Nils, unsurprisingly, admits Roest "has a place in his heart". Their story reminds me of Sven and Håvard in a sense although with one apparent difference: they don't skate in each other's shadow and have been and are still for the most part, two equals. I really appreciate how the two talk about each other and the small hints of a special bond they leave here and there. Seeking this warms my skating heart, really. There are plenty of other examples. Kristiine Kalev of Estonia and Erika Lindgren of Sweden. Samuli Suomalainen of Finland and Seong Hyeon Park of S. Korea. But I'll just stop for now as this post is slowly turning into a novel and this is not the right website to post skating-inspired pieces of art to thanks for coming to my schaatsforum talk!
Havent read all the posts, but why could not Bosker have been awarded the MS1 position by the SLC and then used Bergsma as MS2?
Denk wel dat Kramer vrienden heeft, die ook na het schaatsen zullen blijven. Kan me niet indenken dat Kramer en Douwe helemaal geen contact meer hebben? Kramer en Olde Heuvel zullen ook wel nog steeds contact hebben. De hele MS discussie, tsjaa.. denk wel dat Kramer zelf mee in z'n maag zit.
And so the drama of Patrick Roest sorta resolves itself with him acknowledging that he has to focus on 5 and 10k and doesn't really want to waste his energy on 1500 m. Which was quite apparent to at least a few forum-dwellers here from the start. Yet there are still some conclusions resulting from this whole situation: 1. The matrix has never been properly addressed with the skaters and explained to them; 2. The total or near-to-total lack of proper communication between KNSB and the skaters. Whenever this communication ensues, the skaters end up with more questions than answers and the cycle continues. Roest claims that he still hasn't spoken to Jan Coopmans despite the little rebellion of the past few days -- apparently, the Federation doesn't see any major issue with Roest's feelings or thoughts regarding the matter and kinda lets the situation resolve itself. Say whatever you want but I really think the whole disposition of the decision-makers would have been different and the situation would have been addressed right away, if it was not Roest showing his fangs. The reason, in my opinion, is very simple. I feel like Patrick is not the person like Sven or Kjeld to push the matter to the conflict point and in some cases is hesitant to stand up for himself and just ends up agreeing with whatever is being presented to him post-factum. 3. The lack of or otherwise poor mental support within the team (not speaking exclusively about JV here) based on very shaky psychological grounds and colleague-like relationships where everyone is cool with each other until some sh*t transcends. Still, I'm happy that the guys are ready to talk things over at least between each other and distinguish professional or personal and move on. p.s. if someone told me back in 2014-2015 that Kramer and Bergsma would skate MS together, I'd think they were pranking me but here we are in 2022 and it's as real as my excitement to see their MS interaction in action
Er stond laatst op schaatsen.nl een interview met Michael Kaattee, een hele goede vriend van Kramer sinds hun gezamenlijke tijd in Jong Oranje. Kramer lijkt me juist iemand die heel trouw is aan zijn vrienden. Zoals Johan Cruijff dat ook had. Zie ook zijn handelen nadat WOH een hersenbloeding kreeg.
He could have, but the powers that be decided that Kramer on the MS would be the better choice. Leaving 1500 for Bosker as the best other option. Nr. 1 and 2 are some bold assumptions. I mean, the procedures were well written in a 10 page document published 4 months in advance. I believe it should be every skater's own responsibility to (have it) read and understand it and ask questions if there is something unclear. We are talking about full time professionals here. And about the (near-to-)total lack of communication, of the 20 possible selectees basically the only one complaining was Roest. 19 out of 20 isn't that bad and assuming his spot on the TP was already guaranteed and the 5K and 10K were secured there really wasn't the need to call him. Whether it was smart not to is another thing, with the knowledge we have now, they probably should have, but I can't blame the SLC in this.
I agree but partially as I believe the athletes don't have that much time to read official papers, even if they are 10 pages long. I do agree that it is in their best interest, as those aware of the most crucial provisions have the power to address them early, but the practice shows otherwise. In my opinion, it is the task of the team leaders and especially the top 'regulatory' body to inform the skaters and keep them in the loop of what is going on with the placement. Once again I agree partially. I believe the athletes should have the right to be informed of whether or not they are qualified for the distance, and if not, the reasons behind it. The right to be informed can go a long way if applied correctly and in time. Patrick had a right to be informed and receive explanations for the decision; whether he accepts it or not is another story.
Bosker op MS-1 inzetten zou niet integer zijn in mijn ogen. Naar mijn idee moet de BC daar gewoon de rijder neerzetten die hij het liefst op de mass-start ziet. Dat heeft hij ook gedaan. Anders gaat het hele idee van kansberekening wel de afvoer in.
Achteraf gezien was het dus beslissend dat 1500-3 boven 500-2 werd gezet. Anders had je Bosker niet kwijt gekund. Zo lees ik het niet, ik lees het als Kramer die op de positie van Ntab in de lijst wordt gezet, dus mass start-2 vervangt 500-2.
Ik denk dat we min of meer hetzelfde bedoelen. Ik wilde daarmee zeggen dat N'tab van de matrix wordt gehaald (maar 500m-2 blijft natuurlijk nog op het bord staan. Dit, zodat Verbij en Krol die niet de ''laagst geplaatste deelnemers'' zijn inschuiven) en Kramer als 9e unieke deelnemer met 5000m-3 en MS-2 doorschuift.
In de Telegraaf: Opvallend was de keuze voor Sven Kramer als man voor de mass start in Peking naast Jorrit Bergsma. Heeft Orie ook nog een rol gespeeld bij die aanwijzing? „Nee, het is niet zo dat het op mijn advies is gebeurd, maar ik speel misschien altijd wel ergens een rolletje. Ach, het is een beetje zo gegaan en het is goed dat Sven dit in Peking gaat doen. Ik kijk uit naar die wedstrijd. Dat kan heel mooi worden, want die jongens hebben wel kwaliteiten natuurlijk.” https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/302528904/jac-orie-is-de-rust-zelve-na-emotionele-week-bij-jumbo-visma-herpakken-en-hard-rijden
Oeps. Pikante slip of the tongue dit. Want als Orie dit wist, wist hij ook wat het zou betekenen voor Roest.
Ai, ai.. and the plot thickens. Het is niet zo erg, Kramer is natuurlijk de grotere naam... maar om te doen alsof het een totale verrassing was? Blijkt dus gewoon niet te kloppen.
En je andere rijder in de kou laten staan. Lijkt me voor het vertrouwen van Roest in Orie niet zo lekker. Roest zegt dat hij tijdens een krachttraining van zijn maatjes moest horen hoe het zat. Had Orie hem ook 1 op 1 kunnen vertellen.
Bergsma: als ze me nodig hebben mogen ze komen praten maar er moet wel eerst gepraat worden, hij wordt niet zomaar reserve https://nos.nl/video/2412389-wil-be...olging-in-peking-ze-mogen-altijd-komen-praten
Orie en 1 op 1 gesprekken die niet over metingen en prestaties gaan? Je moet niet het onmogelijke vragen
De BC lijkt last te hebben van uitstelgedrag. Hoe langer hij wacht, hoe lastiger het wordt lijkt me. Wat is er toch aan de hand? De bondscoach lijkt gewoon niet in staat om leiding te nemen als ik dit zo van een afstandje bekijk.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2412506-knsb...jzen-die-als-reserve-naar-winterspelen-kunnen De KNSB gaat vier schaatsers aanwijzen om mee te nemen naar Peking als reserve. Kennelijk kunnen die tot 4 februari a.s. nog ingeschreven worden en dus ook tot die tijd meetrainen in Peking. Nou, wie moeten dat worden? Wijfje (1500m, 3000m, TP en MS) lijkt mij het meest voor de hand liggen. Verder Conijn (lange afstanden), Snellink (lange afstanden en TP) en N'tab/Snel (500m/1000m en in het geval van Snel ook de 1500m)? Of komt hier de beoogde Mass Start reservesprinter nog in terecht?
