Welke schaatsveranderingen zijn wenselijk

Discussie in 'Lange baan' gestart door skate performance, 10 dec 2014.

  1. Kristian

    Kristian Active Member

    Super-WK.
    In the light of the massive interest a championship week gets in alpine skiing, nordic skiing, biathlon and i.e. track cycling, no wonder that some are dreaming of something similar in speed skating!
    If we look at the participation on the 5k in Inzell and Calgary, we see that just 6 skaters were missing out in Calgary: 4.Rumyantsev, 10.Michael, 11.Ghiotto, 12. Bergsma, 14.Fish, 20.Ito. On the 1500 (not surprisingly) its quite a different story: 16 out of 24 were not participating. If allround is going to be attached to the single distances, you have to take such facts into account. How to implement the attachment then? An extra quota of ten based on a qualification, in addition to those participants who have secured a place both on the 5k and the 1500m in the single distance qualification? In the latter with an extra demand for an achieved limit time on the 500m? In such a case you would get larger quotas from countries like the Netherlands. +2 or 3 as a maximum? (This combined with total, limited single distance quotas per country, would to a certain, extra extent trigger selection of skaters from lesser countries that participate in multiple events). To avoid too heavy domination from countries like the Netherlands, you would then in my opinion have to introduce something little bit "unusual": Just the best three (2 on the 10K, men and 5K, women) to count on the result list. Similar to the system of today regarding calculation of quota places when you look past skaters on the list... On the fourth and last distance in the allround event, you just allow 3 skaters from each country to qualify.
    The extra quota of 10 could be decided upon either in an allround Event in the World Cup, or through the EK and 4K. On the womens side, you look closely into if the number should be 10 as well. In the sprint samalogs, you should probably also introduce an extra quota of 10 as the competition on the 500m is fierce, and the 1000m also is a middle distance. An extra quota in addition to those participants that have secured a quota place on both the single distances 500m and 1000m? (Personal) Sprint samalog, qualifying Event in the World Cup as well?

    Saturday: 500m, allround. Men and women. 1500m, single distance and allround. Both gender.
    Sunday: 5000m, single distance and allround. Men. Additional status as a three distance medal awarding event with future Olympic status (wet dream of mine...).
    3000m, single distance and allround. Women. Ditto, as above.
    Monday: 500m and 1000m. Single distance and first day of the sprint samalog, both gender. Additional quotas of 10 for the samalogs?
    Tuesday: 500 and 1000, second day of the sprint samalogs. Both gender. The samalogs decisive in the pairings. Team pursuit, both gender.
    Wednesday: Resting day.
    Thursday: Marathon. Both gender.
    Friday: Team sprint. Both gender. Followed by supersprint, first day for men and women. Mass start, both gender.
    Saturday: Supersprint, second day. 10K, single distance and the conclusion of the classical allround event. Men. 5K, single distance and the conclusion of the classical four event for the women.

    I have certain ideas about the rules of the supersprint and the present mass start. The monday and tuesday could possibly change place with saturday and sunday depending on where the champs are held. Possibly one could also change venue after tuesday.
  2. VorstM

    VorstM Well-Known Member

    Uit de 2010-draad over de nieuwe schaatsregels, en het voorstel om bij het Allrounden slechts 8 schaatsers te laten starten - nog altijd misschien wel de slechtste regelwijziging van de afgelopen jaren. De, door de ISU destijds uit de duim gezogen redenen:

    Laat het even op je inwerken, en combineer het nu met het absolute briljante idee om het WK Allround en WK Sprint samen te voegen. Hoe past dat dan bij een 'acceptabele lengte from a presentation point of view'? Hoe dan? En het gecombineerde EK Sprint/Allround wat we nu al twee keer gezien hebben, hoe past dat hierin? Waarom geeft zo'n dag niet en veel te zware belasting voor de 'volunteers' - die overigens gewoon liefhebbers zijn en het dus echt niet erg vinden om de boel wat langer open te houden. Zelfde voor de spectators en de judges. Hooguit de media klaagt, omdat ze te veel moeten kijken voordat ze content hebben. Of de ISU zelf, dat niet te lang wil moeten wachten met het uploaden van een rampzalig slecht geschreven blog waarin ze foto's en namen van schaatsers door elkaar halen, en de namen ook nog eens fout schrijven. In Japan organiseren ze elke week, vrijwillig en gelukkig nog zonder ISU, schaatstoernooien voor honderden scholieren/studenten/amateurs waarin 160 man een 1500m mogen afwerken, maar bij het WK Allround zou het allemaal net teveel werk zijn voor de 'volunteers' om twee 10 kilometers en 5 kilometers extra te hebben.

    Dus, kan iemand even aan de ISU vragen hoe deze twee besluiten, enkele jaren na elkaar genomen, met elkaar te rijmen zijn? En als ze dat niet zijn, waarom draaien we dat eerste besluit dan niet gewoon terug? Waarom zitten we überhaupt op een forum over een sport te praten waarvan de internationale sportbond bemand en bevolkt wordt door idioten die enkel van met zelfverzonnen leugens proberen hun stempel op de sport te drukken? Waar hebben we dat eigenlijk aan verdiend? Zoveel vragen.
    Camila, Khlebnikov, chicagodude en 2 anderen vinden dit leuk.
  3. Willie82

    Willie82 Member

    Dat is absoluut waardeloos, waarom uberhaupt starten met 24, als je start met 12 die vier afstanden rijden kort je toch ook het programma in. Net zo waardeloos, maar daar kan ik nog enigszins logica in zien.

    En schaatsen blijft het zorgenkindje van de ISU, sowieso snap ik niet waarom kunstrijden en langebaanschaatsen in 1 bond zitten, maar helaas is het zo dat kunstrijden de populairste wintersport is, daarom krijg je mensen op posities die beslissen over zaken waar ze eigenlijk niets vanaf weten. En die kunstrijdwedstrijden die duren pas eeuwig, wat gaat dat sloom.
  4. chicagodude

    chicagodude Well-Known Member

    Dat het de populairste winter(schaats)sport is, is vooral zo in de VS, Canada, en tegenwoordig ook wel Japan. Maar goed, het geld en invloed zitten beide natuurlijk ook wel in die landen, m.n. in de VS.
    VorstM vindt dit leuk.
  5. EenBrabander

    EenBrabander Well-Known Member

    Tellen we ijshockey niet mee?
  6. Hakkie2

    Hakkie2 Well-Known Member

    In Frankrijk trekken ze toch ook volle zalen. Ik heb eigenlijk nooit kunstschaatsen gezien wat niet minstens bijna uitverkocht was, terwijl die kaarten dacht ik over het algemeen niet zo goedkoop zijn.
  7. Forza

    Forza Active Member

    First, I appreciate your efforts in searching for a setup that could work. In my opinion, however you organize it, combining everything in one tournament is going to be confusing for viewers (allround is already difficult for some people!) and it puts too much stress on skaters that want to participate on individual distances, samalogs, and team events. Ultimately, this results in a lower quality tournament and fewer viewers in total.

    To quote one of my favorite bands: "You gotta keep 'em separated".
    Laatst bewerkt: 5 mrt 2019
    mi, Camila, ZeeKoei en 1 andere persoon vinden dit leuk.
  8. Mjøsaman

    Mjøsaman Well-Known Member

    That is the wrong way IMO. You have to do it the other way around. You should attach the single distance specialists to the allround and sprint championships:

    Let us say that we start with 16 allrounders and 16 sprinters, who in principle have to skate 4 distances. On each distance, only 8 specialists can qualify extra. You could enter that a country can qualify maximally 3 skaters for the allround, 3 skaters for the sprint and 1 extra specialist per distance. In that way we still have 24 skaters per distance. For the first 500 meters, there are (16+16+8) 40 skaters. But we can do that without an ice surfacing break. For the second 500 meter, it is only 24. Extra advantage is that the 500 meter is skated twice again, which is fairer. AND the 1000 meter can be skated twice, which is even fairer! For the 10K, only 8 allrounders qualify, together with 4 specialists.

    This means: less skaters, so less travel costs. Skaters have to focus more on allround and sprint, because qualification is easier there than via the specialists route.
    EenBrabander en proeme vinden dit leuk.
  9. Kristian

    Kristian Active Member

    Thank you for your thoughts Forza and Mjøsaman. :) Its less effort for the skaters when you combine the single distances and samalogs in the very same race. The argument that allround is difficult to understand also becomes a lesser problem if you combine the WKs in such a way.... Then I believe that its not a disaster if skaters still have to choose between certain events/samalogs in order to optimize their chances. But I would like that most skaters give it a go in one of the samalogs. Makes the show better.
    Most skaters focus on single distances these days - samalogs are additional spice. Think that one specialist extra on the 1500 is too little. In the single distance route, you are - ideally! - able to pick the fastest venue in the World Cup, and thus dont have to partcipate in every World Cup to qualify. A sequence 500-1500- 5000/3000 in the allround event, also makes the chances better that you dont see skaters showing up on the 5k/3k in order to be able to compete on the 1500. Then I agree that skating the 500 and 1000 twice in the "single distance event" could be an option. But the idea here is to make it more easy for viewers I guess: Focus on single distances on day one, samalogs at the forefront on the second day when the starting fields also becomes smaller. (Another tempting option to me is if you within the sprint samalog operate with single distance awards. I.e. the best results from one of two races given that you ALSO make the - let say - top 14 in the samalog. Such a system each season would not be ideal, though, especially on the 1000m...).
    The most radical part of my suggestion have to be the arrangement of the allround event. Two distances on day one. One on day two, and ("optional") the fourth on day eight. Not a chance that the die hard (old) fans in Norway would support it. Dont think it would be easy in The Netherlands either. Then again: What are ISU up to?
  10. leenstrafan

    leenstrafan Well-Known Member

    Come out and skate!
    ZeeKoei en Forza vinden dit leuk.
  11. PietjeBell

    PietjeBell Member

    Niet echt een schaatsverandering, maar man man wat vind ik die vlaggen op het scherm VRE-SE-LIJK bij huldigingen tegenwoordig. Wat is er nou mooier dan gewoon een echte vlag die omhoog word gehesen...

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